Would LOTR have been better if Gandalf stayed dead?

[[BC]Dr. Mayhem]

Recently in an interview, George R. R. Martin (author of Game of thrones) said the following about Gandalf:

Much as I admire Tolkien, I once again always felt like Gandalf should have stayed dead. That was such an incredible sequence in Fellowship of the Ring when he faces the Balrog on the Khazad-dûm and he falls into the gulf, and his last words are, "Fly, you fools."

What power that had, how that grabbed me. And then he comes back as Gandalf the White, and if anything he's sort of improved. I never liked Gandalf the White as much as Gandalf the Grey, and I never liked him coming back. I think it would have been an even stronger story if Tolkien had left him dead.

Anyone agree or disagree? I actually do agree that his return takes some of the power away from his death in Fellowship, and I also prefer Gandalf the Grey to Gandy the White. That said, there are some reasons in the wider Tolkien mythology why Gandalf might have returned (eg. as an immortal Maiar he was granted a second life by the Valar). Gandy is one of several characters in LOTR who have Christ-like qualities, so there is also an obvious parallel with the ressurrection. Also, I think it was Tom Shippey that said perhaps, after all the wars he had seen, Tolkien wanted to imagine a world where death was less powerful (one of the starkest lines in the preface to LOTR is "by the time I was 18, most of my close friends were dead").

Anyway, what do you think? Would LOTR have been better if Gandalf had stayed dead at Moria? Do you prefer Gandy the Grey to Gandy the White?

[amfakes]

i wonder why the sudden interests on gandalfs dead when Lee aka saruman died after all. however though, i disagree with this, returning gandalf back to life was probably the most unexpected thing Tolkien could do. People think what they cannot see or do is not true nor possible.
But after all, we all believe in life that's what motivates us to wake up at 4am and work the whole day just to get 2 days free a week and yet be glad for living.

[[BC]Taco]

I know very little about George R.R. Martin save what I have gleaned second hand and surmised by the rather more dark and - dare I say it? I durst! - fallen nature of his works, but I would say with some intrepidity that his is a worldview quite unlike Tolkien's, who was a devout Christian and Roman Catholic.

Tolkien admitted his writings were escapist, but in its proper sense: not as desertion from duty, but as a man in enemy territory's duty is to escape from prison. Tolkien's legendarium at first glance may appear over-ideal and biased towards Good, what with immortal Elves and noble characters like Aragorn, but to label Tolkien thence as unrealistic is sheer folly. A cocksure lad scarce a score of years (I for one) could tell you that Tolkien is anything but narrow-minded. Indeed, he was acquainted with, comprehended, and respected far better than most more cultures than your standard five finger hand is suited to count.

Tolkien not only imagined a world where death had less power, he believed first that death had lost its sting in our own. Does everything in Tolkien express this belief? Of course not - one need only read about the Tale of the Children of Hurin or the Akallabeth to see that - but his writings are at their core (and this he himself has stated) profoundly Christian works. The dance between freewill and Iluvatar's providence - semi-delegated to the Valar, but even they, yea, even Melkor, are but his instruments - ; Good and Evil; sacrificial love; the meek triumphing over the mighty; and of course, eucatastrophe: that joyous turn of events when all is seemingly lost ("oft hope is born when all is forlorn").

But I'm waxing lyri..ludicrous. I like different things about both Gandalf the Grey and the White.. I think they are both great and his death and resurrection only enhance the mystery I loved so much about Gandalf the Grey. Is it cheap of Tolkien to bring him back? Not at all. As a Maia he is an angelic spirit which death serves only to derobe (pun intended) his body as a garment. Not only that (for the Balrog is also Maiar), he is (unlike the Balrog) a servant of the Secret Fire (Flame Imperishable, etc indirect reference to Iluvatar), which is to say he is on the winning side. Does Gandalf therefore think he's going to get through this fight ease no problem? Certainly not, as is emphasized many times that he is afraid (as was Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane). Even so, nothing the Balrog, Sauron, Morgoth or Death itself ever do could change anything; Gandy didn't say the dark fire shall not avail for nothin'.

It is simply fallacious to think that for something to be powerful and moving it must be tragic. Don't get me wrong, I am deeply moved by the defiance and deaths of Hurin and his family, but that (as a stand alone tale) exhibits a tone so depressing, which, inevitably, cannot stand on its own two feet. (in Tolkien's larger mythology the Narn i-hin Hurin is far more meaningful. See Corey Olsen's podcasts for more analysis xD) For myself at least I can't think of anything more moving than death and despair working backwards; the Stone Table cracking; the empty tomb. If not moving, then uplifting, which is movement in the right direction!

[[BC]DemonLord]

Well Children of Hurin is a complete downer ending, so i wouldnt say Tolkien was lacking in tragic stories. And what about that story about Amroth and Nimrodel i think? People who lived there were said to have some blood connection to the elves, at least the nobility like Imrahil.

Martin just loves to kill people we start to like thats all. Red Wedding for example, we root for them but in reality they didnt have a chance to avenge their family. And later comes the tv show which completely butchers Stannis the Mannis. I am still in his team, he did what he had to do and final sacrifice he made was actually biggest of all or they would all die there. But looking at him, he looked like he left a better part of himself behind. Not to mention the shrieks and screams we could listen to. Brilliant acting, but idiot writing from D&D, guys who write scenario. But they admitted to hate Stannis so what can i expect. They simply burned her for shock value, no sense at all.

Gandalf actually died but laws there work a little different and he got a divine intervention or something most close to respawn we can get. Well, elves respawn too. Kind of. Rest are probably leaving the world. Tolkien deals with fear of death but its the fact which should be accepted. As bad as it is, doesnt need to mean an end. Acceptance like Aragorn means you are actually going out in very gracefull manner while Numenoreans turned by Sauron were dying to madness, sickness and fighting for no reason. And then Sauron comes and challenges the lightnings sitting on top of his unholy temple. I wonder why Manwe still didnt give it a shot and try to hit Sauron but maybe he was immune as higher level of being. Its still one of fave stories, how Sauron completely brainwash the most powerful nation in world.

[amfakes]

plz the only reason i would read all of your theories, stories and beliefs is coz im dying on my bed.

[[BC]Taco]

Jun 12, 2015 12:16:49 GMT amfakes said:

plz the only reason i would read all of your theories, stories and beliefs is coz im dying on my bed.

That was truly moving Amfakes! We are honoured.

[amfakes]

im glad it was :3

[[BOOB]ronjons]

Gandalf's account of balrog encounter whiffs of exaggeration & 3 hammers.
dead, schmead, what about his resplendent staywhite suit? proof of god if ever needed.